Michalis: What is the next memory you have after Kalyvia?

Rachil: After Kalyvia, I suppose it's the liberation.

Michalis: But what do you remember from that moment?

Rachil: From the liberation or in general?

Michalis: From anything.

Rachil: I don't remember many things. I can't recall anything particular. In Kalyvia we had very good... I have very good memories from there where we stayed. Because it was the only time when no one was ever afraid. I don't know why. It was far from Athens.

Michalis: After the liberation, where did you go?

Rachil: To my aunt's house. To Lyracheiou to stay.

Michalis: So you met Eftychia and Riko again after the war?

Rachil: Yes, after the war. They had also survived. I don't know how my aunt will tell it. She must have told it on the cassette I have.

Michalis: And did all six of you stay together?

Rachil: All together.

Michalis: Do you remember how long you stayed?

Rachil: Quite a long time. Quite a long time. We stayed in one room. She had given us one room. It was her dining room, I think. And she had another one. So the house was small. And we were very cramped. She had a very nice veranda outside. That was the good thing. And she also had chickens. I remember that. I don't know if she had found them or where she had found them. She gradually built things up. We stayed quite a long time there because we couldn't... We didn't know what to do. The house was half demolished. I have a photo of it.

Michalis: And you tried not to have it completely demolished?

Rachil: We tried not to have it completely demolished so we could rebuild it. But they didn't let us. The urban planning department didn't let us. And they demolished it completely. They said it was dangerous.

Michalis: What house was it?

Rachil: That two-story one with the basement below at Attiki Square.

Michalis: Your own house?

Rachil: Our own. But in Sepolia it was a single-family house. It was a small house. One floor. You went up a few steps. And it was again like one room in the middle. And it had on the left the room of my aunt and uncle. On the right was ours. Bathroom and kitchen. That was it. It had nothing else.

Michalis: What work did Uncle Ydis do?

Rachil: He was... I think he was an order-taker. Something like that. He did foot work. From what I remember. He didn't have an office. He had nothing. So I don't know. A broker.

Michalis: A broker?

Rachil: A broker. Not in houses. Something that wasn't very... He wasn't as advanced as my father.

Michalis: All these days, from Dionysos, Rea, Bogiati, etc., do you remember what you occupied yourself with daily as a little child?

Rachil: No. I don't know what I occupied myself with. I know that in Dionysos, as far as I remember very well, we played with dirt and stones. And that's why my mother was afraid I might get hurt. Not stones - we found broken ceramics and pretended to put them in the oven, and she was afraid I might cut myself. And there was fear I might get infected and would need a doctor and so on. And that's why she didn't let me go outside.

Now whether I had any doll with me, who knows. I don't think so. I don't think I had any to play with.

We listened to the radio a lot, but not me of course.

Michalis: Did you have a radio that you carried with you?

Rachil: Yes, yes, yes. I remember a small one. My father had it.

Michalis: Do you remember when you went to a new house again, just your family?

Rachil: In 1950 we rented a house on Promitheos Street, in Patisia.

Michalis: Do you remember the number?

Rachil: 21, if I remember correctly.

Michalis: Until 1950 you stayed with your uncle and aunt?

Rachil: Yes, yes. The rents were expensive. We couldn't rent. Oh, and yes, this was important. We were bomb victims. We learned this later. We were bomb victims and a law protected us so they couldn't evict us. We were bomb victims and when the landlady learned this, she became furious. She didn't know when she rented us the house that we were bomb victims, of course.

Michalis: And I remember, she made our life hell.

Rachil: In Patisia?

Rachil: Yes, on Promitheos. She lived upstairs. It was a two-story house and she lived upstairs. And she couldn't evict us, couldn't raise the rent, and she made our life miserable.

Michalis: Do you remember how?

Rachil: She threw hot water at us. Very big trouble.

Michalis: How was the house in Patisia?

Rachil: It had... you went up a few steps. On the left was the door. A long corridor, which had a room on the right and left. At the back was the kitchen and somewhere on the left again, no right, was the bathroom and then it had a door that led to the yard. And it also had a basement. I remember that.

Michalis: Could you plant things in the yard?

Rachil: I don't think so. It was very small. Very narrow. My father never put anything there.

Michalis: Do you remember your father returning to work?

Rachil: Yes of course. Immediately. Immediately.

Michalis: To the same office?

Rachil: To the same office and he remained friends with Mr. Mavrogiorgi until he died. He died first, Mavrogiorgi.

Michalis: Did they continue to have relations with Vangelis Dimitriou?

Rachil: Of course. Of course. And with Aristeidis, whom I don't remember. Aristeidis. I have him written here.

Michalis: How do you have Aristeidis written?

Rachil: Let me see what... Aristeidis with the help of his godfather. He had found us the house.

Oh, here I see. We immediately froze and understood that something with the two strangers we told you about, the black car. One was a Jewish traitor. His name was Florentin. And the other, a Greek gendarme. Those who came to Agioi Anargyroi. Oh, Aristeidis says Stavrou, while an officer of the Greek army. And he was found, a good man was simply found. But they had a relationship with the war. Yes, we remained in very good relations with all those who saved us.

Michalis: When did you return to some school, do you remember?

Rachil: Oh, yes, where I went there. I went to Attiki School first. It was on Patision, in elementary school.

Michalis: Do you remember what year?

Rachil: 1945.

But I also went before, to Agiou Meletiou, which I told you I remembered, at Agiou Meletiou there was a kindergarten. I went there too, to a kindergarten.

Michalis: Before the war?

Rachil: No.

Michalis: Oh, returning.

Rachil: Yes, yes.

Now, maybe I went to kindergarten when we stayed at my aunt's, which was closer. When we went to Promitheos, I went to Attiki School, which was on Koliatsou. Attiki School.

Michalis: So when you stayed with your aunt, did you return to the same kindergarten?

Rachil: No. I went to kindergarten for the first time.

Michalis: To that one?

Rachil: Yes, to that one.

Michalis: Do you remember which it was?

Rachil: No, but I remember where it was. Agiou Meletiou, exactly where. I don't remember, 60, I think.

Michalis: And how was elementary school, for the first time?

Rachil: Kindergarten was fine. The only thing was that I cried all the time, the first period, but gradually I got used to it. Then in elementary school, when I went to Attiki School, it was very pleasant. It was a nice school.

Michalis: Do you remember how many children were in your class?

Rachil: Few children we were. Not even twenty, I think. There were other Jewish children.

Michalis: Yes.

Rachil: But not in first grade, in third grade. I found Nelly Sefiha. With whom we remained friends from then until she died, unfortunately.

Michalis: Were you the only two Jewish girls in the school?

Rachil: Yes.

And I have other friends with whom I'm still very good. So there are others. From elementary school.

Michalis: Now that you had returned to your own house and were going to school, did your sister go to the same school?

Rachil: No. My sister went to public school. To the 8th. It was nearby. It was the 8th gymnasium.

Michalis: And...

Rachil: Oh, now I remember something else. That they sent me for some time to public school, but I cried so much that every time they called, it was in the same house, the same building. They called my sister. They called her to come comfort me. And my sister rebelled. This can't go on, she said. And that's how they sent me to private school.

Michalis: Attiki School was private?

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: At Attiki School you didn't cry?

Rachil: No. And I was fine.

Michalis: Why?

Rachil: I don't know. The environment was different. I can't understand.

Michalis: When did you celebrate holidays at home again?

Rachil: Immediately. My mother and father never missed opportunities. That is, it's impossible that we wouldn't celebrate a Jewish holiday.

Michalis: Did you do this when you were hiding too?

Rachil: I don't think so.

Michalis: Do you remember the first holiday you had in freedom?

Rachil: Not at all.

Michalis: When is the first time you remember a family celebration again at home?

Rachil: I remember very well Yom Kippur. Because they tortured me too along with him. She didn't eat anything. But I couldn't either. I wasn't supposed to find something to eat by myself. It was a problem.

Michalis: So they told you to fast?

Rachil: Yes, as much as I could. They told me, you, as much as you can endure.

Michalis: And from what age did they tell you this?

Rachil: When I grew up a little, then I kept it too. I didn't avoid it. Now at what age I can't remember. But I remember that, let's say at 10, when I was 10 or 9.

I remember well that they told me you will eat, that is, separately from them and to be, that is, so they don't see me, don't hear me. But later, at some age and after, I kept it.

Michalis: When did you go to synagogue for the first time after the war?

Rachil: We went to synagogue all the time. That is, after the war we didn't miss a Sabbath, we always went. Because we had my grandmother's sister who lived here as I told you on the corner in the house and she was like a landmark. We would definitely go.

Michalis: Remind me what my grandmother's sister was called?

Rachil: Yes, let me remember. Aneta.

Michalis: Aneta.

Rachil: Aneta. I must have somewhere their surname when they were children. It wasn't Giotov.

Michalis: No, no. Giotov was my grandmother, my grandmother's husband.

Rachil: Samoulidou.

Michalis: Samoulidou.

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: Was she married?

Rachil: Aneta of course had many children.

Michalis: How many children did she have?

Rachil: Many. Many. Five I think. If I remember correctly. She had two boys and three girls. Maybe six. I don't remember well.

The cousins must be alive from there.

Michalis: And did Aneta come on Sabbath too?

Rachil: Aneta was elderly. She didn't come. But her daughters were my mother's age.

Michalis: Did you, Astro and your mother go every time?

Rachil: Yes. That is, after synagogue we went to her house. We sat, I played with the children who were the same age.

Michalis: Now that you were a little older after the war, how did the service seem to you?

Rachil: A bit boring. Especially since it wasn't in Hebrew and I didn't understand anything.

Michalis: Do you remember how it was in the women's section?

Rachil: Upstairs was nice. That is, we were all acquainted. It was nice. That is, it had a nice atmosphere. Sometimes we gossiped too.

Michalis: So you didn't sit silently?

Rachil: No.

Michalis: Do the men sit silently?

Rachil: Yes, of course. And many times they called to us from below, as I remember.

Michalis: Until what age did you stay with your parents?

Rachil: Until I got married. I got married of course in 1959. When I was exactly 20. 20 and something. I was very young.

Michalis: And did you stay in your own room, in the house?

Rachil: Wait a minute to remember. No, I was with my sister. But my sister got married in 1953. So I was alone after that. Until 1959.

Michalis: What was your sister's husband called?

Rachil: Matathias Iosif.

Michalis: Where was Matathias Iosif from?

Rachil: From Northern Epirus.

Michalis: From Avlona?

Rachil: Yes, it must have been. Yes, yes. Because they were also somewhat related. Distant relatives. But they were also somewhat related.

Michalis: Do you remember how they met?

Rachil: They met during the occupation. That is, or after the occupation. Yes, wait a minute to remember. Yes, after the occupation. Because someone... We were hosting his cousin. Who was here in Athens. And had entered the Polytechnic. And we hosted him for some time. And he was... they had two cousins with the same name. And his cousin was the one who married my sister. His cousin's cousin, that is. Iosif Matathias and him too. Both.

Michalis: When you hosted him in Patisia?

Rachil: Yes, in... Yes.

Michalis: Did your sister finish the 8th public school?

Rachil: Yes, yes, yes.

Michalis: You after Attiki School?

Rachil: Attiki School was only elementary. Then, I don't know... Yes, they separated. There were two partners at Attiki School. It kept... Gounaraki was called one. Chatzitakis was called the other. And Gounaraki kept the elementary. And Chatzitakis made another gymnasium. On the street... What was the street called that goes up towards Galatsi above. Somehow the street was called.

Michalis: Galatsio.

Rachil: Galatsiou Avenue.

And he had... He built a school there and we went to gymnasium there.

Michalis: Both sisters?

Rachil: No. My sister finished the 8th. Finished. I alone went to Chatzidakis's gymnasium.

Michalis: Until the end?

Rachil: Until the end. No. Two years before. Before the end. My father sent me then he worked with someone in England. And he was his representative and owed him money which they couldn't report here then. And in the last two years and together with Nelly Sefiha they sent us to England and we did the last two years there.

Michalis: What years were these?

Rachil: 1954 to 1956. Two years. Two years we did. In England.

Michalis: Yes.

Rachil: In Bexhill-on-Sea. In Sussex below London. Half an hour from London.

Michalis: And what did you learn there?

Rachil: We did regular high school. That is, the last two classes of gymnasium.

Michalis: In English?

Rachil: In English yes.

Michalis: Was there another person who spoke Greek besides Nelly?

Rachil: Greek no. No. But it was a school from all countries. There I don't know why. I remember many who were from Iraq, from Baghdad certainly, from Israel. There were also Israelis. Two three Israelis. With whom we were very friendly. And it had from other countries too. It was somewhere international, that is, international. They came to learn the language.

Michalis: Was it a Jewish school?

Rachil: No. No relation.

Michalis: And where did you stay then?

Rachil: We were boarders inside.

Michalis: Only girls?

Rachil: Only girls.

Michalis: How many girls in one room?

Rachil: We stayed six I think.

Michalis: How did you communicate with your classmates?

Rachil: At first we had great difficulty. Because the English we had learned here was nothing there. That is, they served us nothing. Although we had both taken private lessons. But gradually they had, their pronunciation was strange.

Michalis: When you went to gymnasium, did you take private lessons only in English?

Rachil: Yes, English. We did at school, we did privately. That is, we prepared in some way.

Michalis: Did you take any other subject outside school?

Rachil: No. Except English.

Michalis: No.

Rachil: We did French at school.

Michalis: And was this school in Sussex different from Galatsi?

Rachil: Very, very different. It was another system, completely different system. First of all, we didn't do all subjects. We chose subjects. Which we did others more... That is, gradually they prepared us for university. And we chose the first year... No, we did everything. The second year which was before the end, we chose some subjects which we liked more. To see what we would study after.

Michalis: What did you choose?

Rachil: History, geography and I still like them.

Michalis: And did you finish school there?

Rachil: Yes. We got the diploma, that is, the English diploma.

Michalis: And how was it to live away from your parents?

Rachil: Very difficult. Very difficult. I was always very emotional. I didn't like, let's say, to be away from home. But I had decided. So in some way, I was patient.

Michalis: Did you agree to go?

Rachil: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, of course. And I wanted it very much. But of course it cost me a lot.

Michalis: And when did you return?

Rachil: In 1956.

Michalis: Was that your plan?

Rachil: No. My father got sick. He had a heart attack. Which they never told me. When I was in England. Because we had planned to continue. To go to... Since we had chosen the subjects. To go to higher school. But... I came in the summer and then they told me. So there was no way, let's say, to go back again. I had to stay here. Because my father was very serious. He had had a heart attack.

Michalis: Did Nelly go back?

Rachil: Nelly also came back. She wouldn't go. She would never go alone.

Michalis: And after you returned, what did you do?

Rachil: I started going to my father's office to be able to help him.

Michalis: Did you use English there?

Rachil: Yes, of course. A lot.

Michalis: So you had business with abroad?

Rachil: Yes, and French. And this was generally true.

Michalis: Your father had business with abroad?

Rachil: Yes, yes, yes. He only had foreign representation.

Michalis: You got married. You returned in '56.

Rachil: In '56.

Michalis: You got married in '59.

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: And you continued to live in the house in Patisia?

Rachil: No. We rented when we got married.

Michalis: No. We weren't living in Patisia. At some point my father was able to rent a house. Either on Acharnon. From there, that is, when it was, I don't remember exactly when. Anyway on Acharnon we lived at the end. Before I got married.

Michalis: After you returned from England?

Rachil: Yes. And before. Maybe even before we had, from '53 and after. Because my sister also got married, she got married from there I think.

Michalis: When, where did your sister's wedding take place?

Rachil: Here in Athens. At Petso.

Michalis: Yes, yes, yes.

Michalis: Do you remember your sister's wedding?

Rachil: Yes, of course.

Michalis: Would you like to describe a bit how it was?

Rachil: Yes, it was very moving first of all. And because they loved, they were very much in love with each other and we were happy about this because it was beautiful. And the wedding was, it wasn't, the people didn't have many people of course, it's not like weddings are done now. It was the wedding and nothing else. That is, the wedding was done, then we went home, it didn't have even receptions, nothing like that. Just the wedding and the godfather, I don't remember who the godparents were, maybe his cousin, because each had to have one. His cousin for him and from us, I don't know who it was, I don't remember.

Anyway, I brought, oh, I didn't bring, I also have photos of the wedding.

Michalis: Did you make a chuppah and everything?

Rachil: Yes, yes, of course, yes.

Michalis: And do you remember who the Rabbi was?

Rachil: Barzilaei. And he was at mine too.

Michalis: And where did your sister stay after?

Rachil: Where did she stay, let me think. She went and stayed at my aunt's. They didn't have a way to, they didn't have, my son-in-law hadn't finished yet, I think, or had finished university. He didn't have work yet.

Michalis: Eftychia?

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: In Sepolia?

Rachil: Yes, yes, in the house that, in the room where we stayed, I gave it to her to stay there with her husband.

Michalis: Astro.

Rachil: Astro with Iosif.

Michalis: Did she have any plan for after school?

Rachil: No. No. From what I remember no.

Michalis: And when Iosif found work?

Rachil: He found at Evangelismos. But there was a problem there. Iosif Matathias, this cousin I had, who is his cousin, who have the same name, was our cousin. He was the son of my mother's sister. The cousin, Iosif Matathias. The other Iosif Matathias. He went to the guerrillas, in the war. To hide of course and because he was also leftist. And when, sorry, he didn't go, they called him to go. But he had pneumonia when they called him.

Michalis: When they called him who?

Rachil: After the war. They called him, how did it happen. He had pneumonia and went... Oh, yes, of course. Because he had pneumonia, he went in his place, he had the same name. And my son-in-law went in his place.

Michalis: Where did he go?

Rachil: To the... Where did he go, not to the guerrillas. Where did he go?

Michalis: Oh, prison.

Rachil: Yes, of course. The communists after liberation, they put them all in Gyaros. Yes, now I remembered. They sent him to Gyaros. And he went in his place, because the other had pneumonia. And he says, if he goes, he says, he'll die. And he went, young boys, 20 years old he was then. Ideologist, let's say, he went in his place.

And when my son-in-law went to ask for work, they didn't give him, they didn't give him a work permit, because he was the communist. Because he was communist or the cousin was communist? The cousin was communist, but he went and did the, what's it called, exile. The exile he did for the... So he was considered as him.

Michalis: Had you learned any particular song that you sang at some of the holidays?

Rachil: Yes, we sang some. What did we sing now, surely we sang some. I don't remember it now. It was a Yanniot song.

It was nice. We sang others, my father sang other songs and with my husband later we sang Ladino songs too.

Michalis: When did you get married?

Rachil: In 1959, March 22nd.

Michalis: March 22nd.

Michalis: And how did you meet your husband?

Rachil: My father had representation of watches and alarm clocks. Among others. This together with Mavrogiorgi had another occupation. No, this one. With Mavrogiorgi the representations he had were watches, alarm clocks. Razors, soaps, many things. But that's how we met my husband. With the watches and alarm clocks. And we had as client Zolotas. Zolotas's store, which you won't remember. You are very young. It was on Neolou street, where the National Bank is now. And it was a jewelry store and had alarm clocks and watches inside.

Zolotas, you won't remember this either, was at the Bank of Greece. Who is the head, who is. We're talking about Xenophon Zolotas.

Michalis: Yes.

Rachil: He had a store on Neolou street. And because he was, of course, he had another position, he had put his nephew to be head of the store. Manager. And this very known, Ilias Lalaounis.

Michalis: Ilias?

Rachil: Lalaounis.

So then, I went, I went at that time when I worked for my father and I took him his order, that is, he had to sign it, approve it and take it back. And he told me at one point, he asks me and says, I have someone who lives in Thessaloniki, he knew I was Jewish of course, and I want to introduce you to him. I was then 18 years old, I was very young, I didn't pay attention. I say, okay, he wants to introduce me to someone who lives in Thessaloniki too, what do I need him for. And I didn't pay attention.

And at some point he had come, my husband traveled, and then he traveled and sold watches to various people, traveler. And we met, he called me, he says come meet him and we met at his shop one day.

Michalis: Do you remember what year?

Rachil: 1958.

And then he started telling me constantly, telling me he wants to meet you and wants to get to know you better and go out together. And every time he told me the same things. And at some point, I say okay, let me meet him. My mother is very anxious. Because when I heard that he lives in Thessaloniki, she says I have one daughter in Israel, my sister lives in Israel. I'll have the other in Thessaloniki never. And when we started going out, I asked him, he says no, we plan, he says with my partner, to come to Athens. And we started going out together and he came to my parents to ask for me at some point. And the first thing my mother asked him, she says, you won't take her to Thessaloniki, no, he says, we'll move to Athens. And that's how we met and got married.

Michalis: Do you remember if there was any objection to the fact that he was from Thessaloniki?

Rachil: There was objection from Thessaloniki. Very big objection.

Michalis: Tell me a little.

Rachil: From his family. The family, his mother, his mother mostly. That I'm not a genuine Jew. That is, she considered that I'm not a genuine Jew.

Michalis: What was his mother called?

Rachil: Matilde Bolton.

Michalis: When did the wedding take place?

Rachil: In March '59.

Michalis: March '59.

Michalis: And where did it take place?

Rachil: Here in Athens.

Michalis: How many people came?

Rachil: Not many. It wasn't... Okay, we had many acquaintances of course. But it's not like today's weddings. That is. Full synagogue. If it was that is.

Michalis: Can you describe the ceremony to us? How did it unfold?

Rachil: I don't remember many things. But... That is, I insisted that it be the same Rabbi. Fortunately he had married my sister too. I don't know why like that. I'm not very... That is, I don't believe in... As they say when someone is... Religious.

Michalis: No, prejudiced.

Rachil: Prejudiced. Yes, yes, yes. But I wanted. And indeed it was the same. And I remember that... because the parents I think had gone to eat all together after. I had asked my husband and he tells me no, no. Everyone to their home he says. He didn't want to do anything after. We all went to our homes that is. We didn't do or eat all together anything.

Michalis: The ceremony was in Hebrew?

Rachil: Yes, of course.

Michalis: Was any other language used?

Rachil: No.

Michalis: Were songs sung?

Rachil: No, we didn't have... They had told my husband, do you want a choir, do you want... There was then some... But he said no, I want a very very simple ceremony. It was so very...

Michalis: Were there some people who sang at weddings?

Rachil: There were, there was a choir then. Some choir.

Michalis: But there was some reception, you said, after...

Rachil: No, nothing.

Michalis: You went...

Rachil: We left home yes, yes. We went home. The house we had rented we went directly. On 3rd September 159.

Michalis: On which floor?

Rachil: On the 5th.

Michalis: There, this house, did it have anything traditionally Jewish inside?

Rachil: No, nothing.

Michalis: Mezuzah?

Rachil: Oh, yes, yes, always. There, I still have it here. Did you see?

Michalis: Yes.

Michalis: So you had mezuzah on the door?

Rachil: Yes, yes.

Michalis: Was this something you did with your family before too?

Rachil: Yes, yes, always.

Michalis: And what did you do every time you entered?

Rachil: I still keep it. And always. And now still. That is, not when I leave the house, but when I go on excursion, when I leave for some weekend. When, this is something your parents taught you?

Rachil: I don't know, I have it, that is God's blessing.

Michalis: In your house, did your father pray?

Rachil: Yes, yes, always. And on Sabbath, and Friday evening. But, on weekdays.

Michalis: On weekdays, no?

Rachil: No. But Friday and Saturday, definitely.

Michalis: And besides the mezuzah was there anything else in the house with your husband, that was traditional?

Rachil: We had the menorah too, both in my house and here. Now I have it stored.

Michalis: Did you do anything for Sabbath at home?

Rachil: No. Nothing special, no.

Michalis: Did you have candles?

Rachil: No.

Michalis: In the house with your parents did you have candles?

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: And do you remember if your mother lit them on Sabbath?

Rachil: My father always.

Michalis: And what did he say when...

Rachil: He said prayers.

Michalis: Your mother didn't participate in this?

Rachil: No, she didn't participate, but she was more religious than my father.

Michalis: Do you remember your father saying any prayer?

Rachil: No.

Michalis: In your house what did you eat?

Rachil: Simple things. We had simple cuisine. My mother made... Her specialties were sweets. She liked sweets very much. She made kadaifi and baklava. That is, she bought the kadaifi sheet ready. She opened the baklava sheet herself. And my father liked and she also loved to cook a lot. My mother didn't eat meat. She was vegetarian. I don't know why. From small she says she didn't like meat. And my father always made the meat. My mother made the vegetables.

Michalis: Was there some food you didn't eat?

Rachil: There was nothing. Nothing special.

Michalis: No.

Rachil: We didn't put much garlic in the house.

Michalis: But don't you remember there being some religious reason not to eat something?

Rachil: No.

Michalis: That is, do you remember eating pork?

Rachil: We mixed that is cheese with meat we mixed.

Michalis: Pork?

Rachil: Oh pork never.

Michalis: You didn't eat pork.

Rachil: There no. In my house no. Here with my husband yes. But meat and cheese we didn't... We didn't... Yes. That is we didn't pay attention. We put bechamel let's say in moussaka.

Michalis: Do you remember eating seafood?

Rachil: Not much. My mother liked red mullet very much. And we went out and always ate them. We didn't cook fish at home. Maybe but very rarely.

Michalis: Shrimp?

Rachil: No. Never.

Michalis: Why?

Rachil: Maybe for religious reasons maybe.

Michalis: And was there some song you had learned from your parents for some holiday?

Rachil: Yes no. I don't remember any.

Michalis: When you made Seder did you do it at home?

Rachil: Yes of course.

Michalis: And did your father read the Haggadah?

Rachil: He did. Yes the Haggadah. All the Haggadah. We didn't skip anything.

Michalis: And do you remember the questions being asked and you participating too?

Rachil: Yes of course. The ten plagues.

Michalis: And did you say them too?

Rachil: All together of course.

Michalis: Did you sing when you did Seder?

Rachil: No we didn't have songs. Now my husband's family from Thessaloniki had the Cabritico what they called.

Michalis: When you married your husband did you make Seder?

Rachil: No that is rarely. We went to my parents'. Yes when my parents made we went. But my husband was very... Libre Penseur. What's it called. He was I don't know he had taken from the... I don't know if it was due to the persecution in Thessaloniki when they returned. That is they found a very bad situation. And they didn't want to stand out as Jews. And I have the impression that this pushed them to be completely foreign to religion. That is my mother-in-law and my husband and his brothers. Almost that is they didn't want to participate as Jews at all.

Michalis: What languages did your husband speak?

Rachil: Spanish, Ladino, French and English. Greek.

Michalis: Greek yes very well.

Michalis: Do you have children?

Rachil: Yes two daughters.

Michalis: When were they born?

Rachil: 1960 and 1961.

Michalis: And what are the daughters called?

Rachil: Matilda.

Michalis: The older one?

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: And Aliki.

Michalis: Matilda from your mother-in-law?

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: And Aliki?

Rachil: Aliki because, I don't know why, Esther was my mother. But for some reason, she also agreed not to name her. I don't remember why.

Michalis: When you had children, did you decide to keep, did you start to keep any?

Rachil: I always. I always was. But I had very strong reaction from my mother-in-law's side mostly. My husband didn't say anything. But my mother-in-law was relentless. That is, whatever was related to religion, as if she didn't want at all.

Michalis: What did you want to keep at home?

Rachil: Well, the essentials. Nothing much. The matzah, let's say, to keep it for a week. It wasn't important not to eat bread, flour, let's say, that week. And now I was also very young. And I was influenced. And, unfortunately, I never kept anything in my house.

Michalis: Did your mother-in-law live with you?

Rachil: No, she didn't live with us. She lived nearby. Very close to us. She lived on Kodryktou. But she had, she was very, character, very insistent. That is she was authoritarian, authoritarian.

Michalis: Do you remember ever making Seder with the children?

Rachil: With the children at my parents' house. Always.

Michalis: When did your father die?

Rachil: In 1956. Sorry, wrong. In 1976.

Michalis: And when you made Seder, was your husband there too?

Rachil: Yes, yes, always.

Michalis: You mentioned some songs from Thessaloniki.

Rachil: What were they?

Rachil: The Cabritico, something reminds me, something reminds me. This which they said, that is, many. My father didn't say it though. Now, where I remember it so much, I don't know. My father sang other songs, from Ioannina.

Michalis: Do you remember anything about the song?

Rachil: I don't remember anything.

Michalis: Do you remember the Cabritico?

Rachil: Very little.

Michalis: Would you like to tell us what you remember?

Rachil: Something. Something. Like a story inside this. It has a story. That something was lost. I don't know. And I don't... That is, I have so many years since I heard them.

The only thing I remember is the Cabritico. What is little goat?

Michalis: Little goat.

Rachil: Yes, little goat.

Michalis: When did you sing this or did your husband sing it?

Rachil: Yes, my husband sang it. And there was my sister's husband too. Who was very... We went, sometimes we went, because my father went to my sister for Passover, we went and made Passover with his sister and her husband, who was also from Thessaloniki and knew them, knew all these very well. Mois Nachmias.

Michalis: Mois Nachmias.

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: When you say you made your sister...

Rachil: They went every Passover, yes. Every Passover my mother and father went.

Michalis: Where did she live?

Rachil: In Atania.

Michalis: I'll tell you some holidays and you tell me if you did anything in your own house.

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: Did you do anything for Sukkot?

Rachil: Sukkot, no.

Michalis: Pesach?

Rachil: Pesach, yes. But only at your parents'?

Rachil: Only, yes. That is we didn't keep the custom. I tried for the matzah, I mean. But Pesach, that is as long as my parents were here, we went to my parents'. Then we went with my husband's sister and made Pesach.

Michalis: Why do you keep the matzah?

Rachil: Why do we keep the matzah?

Michalis: Why did you observe this custom?

Rachil: I, I liked this custom and kept it. But gradually I was also influenced and I don't remember for how long I kept it.

Michalis: Did you also do the afikoman?

Rachil: Yes, of course.

Michalis: Can you describe a bit how this was with the children?

Rachil: Yes, we gave it to the smaller one, I think. We made... Tell me a little, what was the afikoman. What did you use.

Rachil: Oh, we put a matzah inside a napkin someone. And the smaller one took it now because, I don't know. I don't remember.

Michalis: Do you remember the children searching for the afikoman?

Rachil: No, no. You gave it directly.

Rachil: And Aliki took it.

Michalis: Aliki, yes.

Rachil: Always. Always her.

Michalis: Did you do anything for Shavuot?

Rachil: No, no nothing special. We kept Purim.

Michalis: What did you do for Purim?

Rachil: The children dressed up. We made a party.

Michalis: What did the children dress up as?

Rachil: They had, I had for a long time, one of them I had, I think it's still somewhere, one witch costume I had. And the other, what was she the butterfly I think.

Michalis: Who wore the witch costume?

Rachil: The little one, Aliki.

Michalis: And did you make a party at home?

Rachil: Yes.

Michalis: Did you have guests?

Rachil: Yes, because we had a group then who were all Jews. And we made parties among us.

Michalis: What group was this from where?

Rachil: It was the Matathias, the parents of Alex Matathias. And they had a big family, many siblings. And usually we made parties, that is, among us.

Michalis: At your own house?

Rachil: And at ours and at theirs. They had a big house in Psychiko. And we made, that is, they made more parties.

Michalis: And did all the children dress up?

Rachil: All the children, yes.

Michalis: Did you dress up?

Rachil: I don't remember dressing up. When we made the big party, I remember. But that wasn't Purim. It was carnival.

Michalis: And was there any special food for Purim that you made?

Rachil: No. Even if there was I don't remember. Maybe we did something special. I don't remember anymore.

Michalis: Your friends with the surname Matathias were they also of origin from...

Rachil: No. Matathias was, he was from Volos. And Bert was of origin from... What is it. From Larissa I think. Alex might remember better. His parents are.

Michalis: Alex Matathias.

Michalis: Did you do anything for Hanukkah?

Rachil: Hanukkah... Hanukkiah of course. I still have it.

Michalis: Would you like to tell us what you did with it?

Rachil: We lit one candle each day.

Michalis: For how many days?

Rachil: For 7-8 I think.

Michalis: And did you do it or someone else?

Rachil: My husband usually did it. And my father at my father's house.

Michalis: And did they say something when they did it?

Rachil: And some prayers they said of course.

Michalis: Do you remember your husband saying them too?

Rachil: Not so much. The children were there.

Michalis: Yes of course. Always they enjoyed it.

Michalis: And how did they participate?

Rachil: They liked it because it was a holiday. It was joy.

Michalis: And how did you celebrate? Did you eat something special?

Rachil: Yes we ate something special for Hanukkah. But I don't remember this either. It was so long since we gathered as a family. Because my husband left in 2004. And since then we dispersed a little.

Michalis: Yom Kippur?

Rachil: I kept it for a long time. Yom Kippur and indeed some doctor, not Jewish, had said that what you do is very healthy.

Michalis: Did anyone else in the house keep it?

Rachil: No.

Michalis: Did you go to synagogue with your husband?

Rachil: No. Almost not at all.

Michalis: When was the last time you went to a service?

Rachil: Long time. Very long time. Almost since when, since my daughter got married I suppose. In 1998.

Michalis: So you went regularly only when you lived as a child with your parents?

Rachil: Yes, as a child. Very, very regularly with my mother. Every Saturday, Saturday was essential.