Transcription
Zak Francais: Larissa was under Italian occupation and the officer had told my grandfather that if you see the flag coming down, run. And that's what happened. As soon as the Italian flag came down and the Germans took control, they left and went to Kaisariani. The last house in Kaisariani. They went with false identity papers. My father was Afakis Athanasios. They made us identity cards. Especially Evert helped again. And my father told me he worked at the oxygen factory. And he told me that at night the house was full of bullet holes because there were rebels over there. My godmother never went out at all because she didn't speak Greek at all, my dad told me.
Interviewer: Yes, she couldn't speak Greek.
Zak Francais: So my godmother stayed inside the house. The children went around. They went to my mother-in-law. She didn't speak well. She knew strong language. And they say my dad, how does she speak like that. I'll never forget it. My children.
Interviewer: While they were in Kaisariani, what work did they do to survive?
Zak Francais: Uncle Chaim who was the eldest had gotten married I think then. And aunt Gracia. Aunt Gracia was with the Red Cross. Because she knew how to speak and [...] and she was from Egypt. My dad sold cigarettes. From what I remember. He made a little case, my aunt said. And my mom had said it, and he wandered around Omonia to sell cigarettes. And to make a living. Aunt Gracia was... [...] They had six children. And my mother is from six children. And my father from six. And she was Egyptian, Jewish.
Interviewer: Yes.
Zak Francais: Then, at that time, before the liberation, it was the Ottoman Empire. It was like one state. You didn't need passports or anything. So the communities took a lot from Syria, from Greece, Egypt. The communities were large then, before the Holocaust. And people communicated, because all Jews were merchants. So there was contact with other communities. And I found that a distant cousin of hers, Orit, my wife's, her grandmother, had taken... She was... She was from Thessaloniki.
Interviewer: Who...?
Interviewer: You don't know her, mom
Zak Francais: I'd like to tell you that mixed marriages took place then. Mixed marriages... That is, from different states. Now, the Holocaust issue that happened, and that is in Greece, in Greece it happened in a very systematic way. All of Hitler's leadership had come here, to be able to take as many Jews as possible. The reason, which, as I see it from what I've read, is that the leadership of Judaism in Europe was here. And especially in the northern part of Greece. So, they thought, once we can manage and succeed in killing the leadership. It's like the whole system would collapse. The heads of Judaism, of Spain and the Initiative, were here in Greece. Of course, they went to Morocco too, they went, they reached later Holland, England, but the leadership remained here. And these, the chachamim, as they're called, not only were they not just Rabbis, but they were, they wrote books on Judaism. And one of these is the Shulchan Aruch, which is called the set table, it was the official interpretation of Judaism, because until then it hadn't been written. And this is recognized by other religions too. Well, it was also a Kabbalah center. Here. That's why the Germans saw it, that it was the opportunity to exterminate all the great ones and all our Jews would fall, it would fall afterwards. Those Jews who managed to escape, left and my dad, as soon as he learned, we left immediately. Others didn't leave, the Germans caught them. And they were lost. There in the North, where they started from the North and then came down, they took 95-97%. For example, the chief rabbi we had here in Volos, Pesach. How many children did he have, 9 or 11.
Interviewer: How many children did Pesach have.
Toula Francais: Pesach, two boys.
Zak Francais: No, who survived.
Toula Francais: And two girls. They've all died.
Zak Francais: But they took them, because they were in different places, while Pesach was alone here and they took him to Keramidi.
Toula Francais: In Volos. Chaim helped us.
Interviewer: If you remember, what did you have in the house, Jewish things.
Toula Francais: Our cross and the books my dad read, because he knew the Hebrew language.
Interviewer: She says, if you remember anything you had here in your house. What else. Mezuzah, did you have on the door?
Toula Francais: Yes. We had.
Interviewer: Chanukiah, aunt.
Toula Francais: Yes.
Interviewer: Chanukiah, Chanukiah, Chanukiah menorah?
Toula Francais: Yes. Of course.
Interviewer: Where did you get married, in which synagogue did you get married, here or in Larissa.
Toula Francais: In Larissa.
Interviewer: In Larissa, the groom's place.
Toula Francais: Yes.
Interviewer: Yes. How was the synagogue then, aunt, was it beautiful? Well-maintained?
Toula Francais: Of course.
Zak Francais: I remember it before it fell.
Interviewer: Of course.
Zak Francais: The synagogue in Larissa was more beautiful.
Interviewer: Exactly.
Toula Francais: Yes. Very beautiful. They even received the king then, George, I think. And Gracia.
Interviewer: Yes. And Gracia. And Gracia. And Gracia. And your sister-in-law
Zak Francais: But Larissa was more... they were more religious because they were from Spain
Interviewer: Sephardic
Zak Francais: they had another... they had Kasuto there too... I keep hearing this name, wasn't he... was he a [...] rabbi I think? I asked my father, I said "Why didn't you go to Yeshiva?"
Interviewer: What did you ask him?
Zak Francais: He told me... they didn't have money, to enter Yeshiva you had to pay, they didn't get help from the state and then people were poor. So he went for free and studied at Bet Midrash. He worked in the morning and in the evening he went to Bet Midrash. All the brothers. My godfather was a pharmacist's assistant. He had to support a family of six children, how many were they?
Interviewer: What languages did aunt Gracia speak?
Zak Francais: Both French and English and Hebrew. And Egyptian and Greek. Those are the languages. She spoke Spanish.
Interviewer: And Spanish. There.
Toula Francais: My aunt Gracia was a personality, she was young.
Interviewer: A lady.
Toula Francais: She was a lady. And a good person.
Interviewer: A good person.
Toula Francais: And she raised very good children too.
Interviewer: He's a doctor. An orthopedic professor. Her eldest son was. A world-renowned professor. He lengthened and shortened legs then. He had been trained in Canada and Russia too. Do you remember any other marriage that took place between a Greek and a non-Greek? From France, from Syria, from England. Do you remember?
Toula Francais: No.
Interviewer: Go on.
Zak Francais: I saw this down in America. Who... Yes, there you learn a lot. And I saw that indeed they had married from all these Mediterranean states. And I found Jews. Where I didn't expect to find them, I found Greeks. First before I went to Wesley Hills, I lived in Monsey. In Monsey I found how many Greeks.
Interviewer: Of course, all of them.
Zak Francais: All these Greek-Jews no longer kept our Greek customs. But there were others who still spoke Greek. Or they were second generation.
Interviewer: What decade did you go to America?
Zak Francais: 1984, 1985 around there we went there. Because first I did in Israel.
Interviewer: Was there a Jewish community in America where you went?
Zak Francais: Yes, of course. Yes, very large. Organized communities. That one very organized.
Interviewer: Those who went, how often did they go to synagogue, did they keep the customs?
Zak Francais: Yes, three times a day. But Sarkapon I think lived in a religious community. He didn't live in a conservative community. They weren't the... All the communities there kept them. Even reform. We didn't have reform. Reform is in Manhattan. There's also on Long Island I've been. Most are conservative. And now the Orthodox have given a new name. Orthodox. Look, I took you to a synagogue with two thousand seats. Two thousand seats. And I went to help them make the minyan. So much. No one was helping. Yes. That was conservative. On Long Island that was the equivalent. Either you keep or you don't keep. Those who don't keep, the result is mixed marriages and then it's over. Then I had the luck in America to get to know Judaism better, that's the main thing I'd say, an achievement I had in my life was to go to America and get to know Judaism in depth. I saw all their branches that exist and regardless of course the profession. I went to America for other reasons but this was the main thing. My eldest son is a Rabbi. They all finished yeshiva and Jewish University.
Interviewer: Where is your eldest son now?
Zak Francais: They're all there in New York. They made families, I married them all off and then I came back.
Later in the interview, Zak Fransais describes his family's flight from Larissa to Kaisariani with false identities when the Italians surrendered the city to the Germans. He analyzes the reasons why the Germans focused on Greece, explaining that this was where the intellectual leadership of Sephardic Jewry was located, with important Kabbalah centers and the authors of fundamental Jewish works such as the “Shulchan Aruch”. The interview also explores the post-war diaspora of Greek Jews, particularly in America, where Zakos lived and worked from 1984. He describes organized Jewish life in New York, the various versions of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform) and the deep religious education he gave his children, with his eldest son becoming a rabbi. The narrative captures the transition from traditional Jewish life in pre-war Greece to the modern diaspora and the maintenance of religious identity abroad.
Toula Francais
Transcription
Zak Francais: Larissa was under Italian occupation and the officer had told my grandfather that if you see the flag coming down, run. And that's what happened. As soon as the Italian flag came down and the Germans took control, they left and went to Kaisariani. The last house in Kaisariani. They went with false identity papers. My father was Afakis Athanasios. They made us identity cards. Especially Evert helped again. And my father told me he worked at the oxygen factory. And he told me that at night the house was full of bullet holes because there were rebels over there. My godmother never went out at all because she didn't speak Greek at all, my dad told me.
Interviewer: Yes, she couldn't speak Greek.
Zak Francais: So my godmother stayed inside the house. The children went around. They went to my mother-in-law. She didn't speak well. She knew strong language. And they say my dad, how does she speak like that. I'll never forget it. My children.
Interviewer: While they were in Kaisariani, what work did they do to survive?
Zak Francais: Uncle Chaim who was the eldest had gotten married I think then. And aunt Gracia. Aunt Gracia was with the Red Cross. Because she knew how to speak and [...] and she was from Egypt. My dad sold cigarettes. From what I remember. He made a little case, my aunt said. And my mom had said it, and he wandered around Omonia to sell cigarettes. And to make a living. Aunt Gracia was... [...] They had six children. And my mother is from six children. And my father from six. And she was Egyptian, Jewish.
Interviewer: Yes.
Zak Francais: Then, at that time, before the liberation, it was the Ottoman Empire. It was like one state. You didn't need passports or anything. So the communities took a lot from Syria, from Greece, Egypt. The communities were large then, before the Holocaust. And people communicated, because all Jews were merchants. So there was contact with other communities. And I found that a distant cousin of hers, Orit, my wife's, her grandmother, had taken... She was... She was from Thessaloniki.
Interviewer: Who...?
Interviewer: You don't know her, mom
Zak Francais: I'd like to tell you that mixed marriages took place then. Mixed marriages... That is, from different states. Now, the Holocaust issue that happened, and that is in Greece, in Greece it happened in a very systematic way. All of Hitler's leadership had come here, to be able to take as many Jews as possible. The reason, which, as I see it from what I've read, is that the leadership of Judaism in Europe was here. And especially in the northern part of Greece. So, they thought, once we can manage and succeed in killing the leadership. It's like the whole system would collapse. The heads of Judaism, of Spain and the Initiative, were here in Greece. Of course, they went to Morocco too, they went, they reached later Holland, England, but the leadership remained here. And these, the chachamim, as they're called, not only were they not just Rabbis, but they were, they wrote books on Judaism. And one of these is the Shulchan Aruch, which is called the set table, it was the official interpretation of Judaism, because until then it hadn't been written. And this is recognized by other religions too. Well, it was also a Kabbalah center. Here. That's why the Germans saw it, that it was the opportunity to exterminate all the great ones and all our Jews would fall, it would fall afterwards. Those Jews who managed to escape, left and my dad, as soon as he learned, we left immediately. Others didn't leave, the Germans caught them. And they were lost. There in the North, where they started from the North and then came down, they took 95-97%. For example, the chief rabbi we had here in Volos, Pesach. How many children did he have, 9 or 11.
Interviewer: How many children did Pesach have.
Toula Francais: Pesach, two boys.
Zak Francais: No, who survived.
Toula Francais: And two girls. They've all died.
Zak Francais: But they took them, because they were in different places, while Pesach was alone here and they took him to Keramidi.
Toula Francais: In Volos. Chaim helped us.
Interviewer: If you remember, what did you have in the house, Jewish things.
Toula Francais: Our cross and the books my dad read, because he knew the Hebrew language.
Interviewer: She says, if you remember anything you had here in your house. What else. Mezuzah, did you have on the door?
Toula Francais: Yes. We had.
Interviewer: Chanukiah, aunt.
Toula Francais: Yes.
Interviewer: Chanukiah, Chanukiah, Chanukiah menorah?
Toula Francais: Yes. Of course.
Interviewer: Where did you get married, in which synagogue did you get married, here or in Larissa.
Toula Francais: In Larissa.
Interviewer: In Larissa, the groom's place.
Toula Francais: Yes.
Interviewer: Yes. How was the synagogue then, aunt, was it beautiful? Well-maintained?
Toula Francais: Of course.
Zak Francais: I remember it before it fell.
Interviewer: Of course.
Zak Francais: The synagogue in Larissa was more beautiful.
Interviewer: Exactly.
Toula Francais: Yes. Very beautiful. They even received the king then, George, I think. And Gracia.
Interviewer: Yes. And Gracia. And Gracia. And Gracia. And your sister-in-law
Zak Francais: But Larissa was more... they were more religious because they were from Spain
Interviewer: Sephardic
Zak Francais: they had another... they had Kasuto there too... I keep hearing this name, wasn't he... was he a [...] rabbi I think? I asked my father, I said "Why didn't you go to Yeshiva?"
Interviewer: What did you ask him?
Zak Francais: He told me... they didn't have money, to enter Yeshiva you had to pay, they didn't get help from the state and then people were poor. So he went for free and studied at Bet Midrash. He worked in the morning and in the evening he went to Bet Midrash. All the brothers. My godfather was a pharmacist's assistant. He had to support a family of six children, how many were they?
Interviewer: What languages did aunt Gracia speak?
Zak Francais: Both French and English and Hebrew. And Egyptian and Greek. Those are the languages. She spoke Spanish.
Interviewer: And Spanish. There.
Toula Francais: My aunt Gracia was a personality, she was young.
Interviewer: A lady.
Toula Francais: She was a lady. And a good person.
Interviewer: A good person.
Toula Francais: And she raised very good children too.
Interviewer: He's a doctor. An orthopedic professor. Her eldest son was. A world-renowned professor. He lengthened and shortened legs then. He had been trained in Canada and Russia too. Do you remember any other marriage that took place between a Greek and a non-Greek? From France, from Syria, from England. Do you remember?
Toula Francais: No.
Interviewer: Go on.
Zak Francais: I saw this down in America. Who... Yes, there you learn a lot. And I saw that indeed they had married from all these Mediterranean states. And I found Jews. Where I didn't expect to find them, I found Greeks. First before I went to Wesley Hills, I lived in Monsey. In Monsey I found how many Greeks.
Interviewer: Of course, all of them.
Zak Francais: All these Greek-Jews no longer kept our Greek customs. But there were others who still spoke Greek. Or they were second generation.
Interviewer: What decade did you go to America?
Zak Francais: 1984, 1985 around there we went there. Because first I did in Israel.
Interviewer: Was there a Jewish community in America where you went?
Zak Francais: Yes, of course. Yes, very large. Organized communities. That one very organized.
Interviewer: Those who went, how often did they go to synagogue, did they keep the customs?
Zak Francais: Yes, three times a day. But Sarkapon I think lived in a religious community. He didn't live in a conservative community. They weren't the... All the communities there kept them. Even reform. We didn't have reform. Reform is in Manhattan. There's also on Long Island I've been. Most are conservative. And now the Orthodox have given a new name. Orthodox. Look, I took you to a synagogue with two thousand seats. Two thousand seats. And I went to help them make the minyan. So much. No one was helping. Yes. That was conservative. On Long Island that was the equivalent. Either you keep or you don't keep. Those who don't keep, the result is mixed marriages and then it's over. Then I had the luck in America to get to know Judaism better, that's the main thing I'd say, an achievement I had in my life was to go to America and get to know Judaism in depth. I saw all their branches that exist and regardless of course the profession. I went to America for other reasons but this was the main thing. My eldest son is a Rabbi. They all finished yeshiva and Jewish University.
Interviewer: Where is your eldest son now?
Zak Francais: They're all there in New York. They made families, I married them all off and then I came back.