Transcription
Continuation of Interview by Michalis Daskalakis Giontis with Ilias Koen
Ilias: My mother was well-known in the Jewish community for her white linens. It was customary then for all the girls to make their trousseau and they would embroider the monograms etc. and other things, and she would make the entire trousseau with the combinations, the robes, etc.
In that house of Yousouroom's that had the Star of David below, my mother had hidden all her jewelry inside a drawer to save them, and they were saved. While other Jews unfortunately who gave theirs to others never got them back.
Michalis: Did your family observe the holidays at home?
Ilias: Let me tell you about the holidays too. Because we were Koen and because it was the early years after the war, most families tried to maintain the customs. Because they would come to the synagogues on Saturdays and Friday evenings since they were in the area around the synagogue - Thiseio, Psyrri, Koumoundourou, Ermou, Athinas, etc.
Where later with the expansion and with the... that every Jew tried and made a better quality of life or made a better future, they went to other areas. The suburbs went further out, they went to Patisia which was then, they went to Philadelphia, they went toward old Phaleron, and so they began to not have the ability to come regularly to the synagogue, and when you don't find yourself with others, your customs gradually get abolished.
I told you we were so fanatical that we had a special oven only for... that no one else in Greece had.
Michalis: So you ate only kosher at home?
Ilias: For Passover we ate matzah and we ate Jewish food. For Yom Kippur we kept the fast. As children we would often go to our father and act like children many times to leave - water for example.
I remember here at the Jewish school because most children were from poor families - in the early '50s there were mostly poor children and families. There were also many rich people who had managed to save their fortunes. But the majority of children were middle or lower class.
They would photograph us here in the synagogue courtyard outside and send the photographs to wealthy families abroad, and somehow each foreign family would help some individual. My brother and I were taken care of by a Jewish family from Switzerland who I remember sent us chocolates and halva and all kinds of sweets for many years.
There was somewhere on Patision Street a Joint warehouse that had clothing and footwear material probably from America, and everyone would go and whatever they liked they would take and wear it. And they would take it to use it.
When I finished school there was a Montiano here who was an officer in the Italian army and with his connections he had achieved a kind of Italian war reparations on a cultural level. To give every year two scholarships for Casa d'Italia, the Italian school that was on Patision across from the museum.
Michalis: What was it called?
Ilias: It's Casa d'Italia.
Michalis: Casa d'Italia.
Ilias: Casa d'Italia is Italy's cultural center.
Michalis: For Jews?
Ilias: Only for Jews. From what I remember now, let me mention a name - Alberto Baruch. I was among the pioneers and indeed finishing high school I had received a scholarship from the Italian government to study in Italy.
Michalis: Did you go?
Ilias: Yes. To study in Italy.
Certain milestones of Greek Judaism that are not mentioned extensively. Who has mentioned or analyzed them. Abraham Benaroya is mentioned somewhat, not very much.
Michalis: Yes.
Ilias: Who has mentioned, one could include, Abraham Benaroya.
Michalis: Yes.
Ilias: Where there's the famous phrase, you don't know if you don't know, of Venizelos to the King who had said "Either me or Benaroya." And who brought socialism.
Who has mentioned that the first credit bank was there in Greece?
Michalis: Oriental Bank.
Ilias: Oriental Bank, somehow... Bank of the Orient. Dorian.
Michalis: Yes.
Ilias: The story of Karagiozis, the famous...
Michalis: Julio Kaimi.
Ilias: Kaimi. I knew him personally.
Michalis: Oh, really?
Ilias: Here when he would come to the community in the last years of his life, in rags and under his arm various documents which he was trying to sell for nothing for the...
To tell you now about Karagiozis that no one knows. As the Karagiozis plays were, Karagiozis the Greek, Karagiozis... Karagiozis was Karagiozis the landlord. Jewish, wait let me tell you. Jewish landlord, Karagiozis, Jewish landlord, and the housewife would go - then they paid rent every week - she would go on Saturday to pay it and he wouldn't take the money and so she wouldn't pay him. It was a very nice story.
Passing through Athens, signs with Hebrew, amazing Jewish signs. There was a famous sign in Klafthmonos Square, in Klafthmonos Square, Pepos Frances.
Michalis: Pepos Frances.
Ilias: Pepos Frances, the fabrics - he was a big fabric merchant. There was on Aiolou until recently a big sign, Nachmia Kapikaeas brothers, there were many Jews there.
Michalis: There's still, Filosof who is there.
Ilias: Yes, Pepos Filosof. They're still there, they have it. And there is the famous dressmaker my compatriot, Florentin Delis, who was the only dressmaker who made, who doesn't exist now, but is the only one who has remained in Greece and Athens, who makes patterns on the body.
Many Jews tried and were helped by Evrer and other factors here to get identity cards with other names. I have my father's identity now, Koenidis. I don't have the Koenidis identity. And my mother's others and special papers.
Because... women are more organized, my mother had all the papers in a bag, for all needs, because air raids often happened and they would go and hide in Monastiraki below. The tunnel was like a shelter then, in 1940.
In one such air raid, in Alamania, my mother with my brother and all the papers, got separated from my father in Alamania. And my father suddenly found himself, Minas Kore, found himself in Athens without any papers. And he was forced to live hidden in forests, in Philadelphia, on Parnitha, to hide. And from the hardships after the war he died.
As children we went to elementary school. I won the scholarship from the Italian government and studied at Casa d'Italia, who indeed when I went gave me the president, and I have the papers, of the school committee, Saltiel Koen, I don't know if he says it, gave me a Jewish book with his signature and wishes and congratulations that I succeeded at the Italian school.
My brother studied here in Physics, a physicist, and went with a fellowship to England, a pioneer in microcomputers. His books, the originals that existed.
Michalis: How many Jewish children do you say were at the school?
Ilias: Around 80 to 100, in the good times around 80 to 100. And they had some special subject of Jewish topics. We had Hebrew with the More - a little, More means teacher - who indeed had the peculiarity, who wasn't a good student however without the, he would put your hand like a nail and hit you with the rod on top.
Michalis: Do you remember his name?
Ilias: Ah More we called him. I remember in all the classrooms there were photographs, lithographs - a photograph is one thing and a lithograph is another, and a colored lithograph is another - with all the heroes of 1821. There were in some classrooms, in the Jewish school, that instead of 1821 had lithographs of Jewish subjects. From Moses who was with the ten commandments, Samson who had such a one.
Below I don't know how they found them for national holidays, they had garlands with Greek flags and garlands with the Jewish flag of Israel.
Another thing I forgot to mention, that I'm among the few now that there will be others, that I myself attended in 1948 on Filellinon Street, when the first raising of the Israeli flag by Naser Moses happened, our mother held us because there were so many people. I remember this event intensely because there were so many people that our mother held us very tightly in her hands so we wouldn't get lost. I attended that event.
Michalis: Filellinon what number did you say?
Ilias: Eight I think is known.
Michalis: Do you remember seeing Naser Moses?
Ilias: What did you say?
Michalis: Did you see Naser Moses?
Ilias: We were very far away. I remember we attended there with many people and we saw if the flag had been raised in front. We saw the flag. I remember it and I remember why I remember it. Our mother held us very tightly so we wouldn't get lost.
Michalis: At school did you celebrate the Jewish holidays?
Ilias: We celebrated, yes. We celebrated the Jewish holidays very much. And indeed they would say the national anthem too. They would say something at the beginning too. A prayer when we entered the classroom very much.
There were the ladies Demagio, Margouli who took care of the food. Demagio, Margouli, Kostis.
There were many families who took the whole family together. They took the whole family to Germany. Both the man, the husband and the wife. Often it had to be determined who died first so the other relatives could inherit. So there was a case of our relative where a whole trial was held to prove that one died first so the other's relatives inherit it.
Such cases came from those who returned besides others who didn't even find their houses. There are such cases too.
I remember another thing. I had the famous one at our house. I've even photographed it. Famous, if you know them, Zenith radios with seven short waves. Something amazing. They're like suitcases. Something tremendous. And we would listen every Friday evening from Israel, Kol Israel from Jerusalem. In Ladino, the Kiddush and in Hebrew.
Michalis: Did your mother light candles on Sabbath?
Ilias: We lit them. We lit them. And indeed we would cook from Friday. I tell you, we did, but later gradually because the world expanded, everyone began with an excuse that we're far away or many didn't give the proper knowledge to their children due to economic difficulties that they had to work and many things were lost.
After Passover we would collect, we would go to the fields, specifically to Philadelphia which had wheat then and we would collect wheat stalks and put them in the synagogue's mezuzah. We did the same with Shavuot and with Sukkot. We would take leaves from Sukkot and put them in the mezuzah.
I saw that this custom was kept by Mizan who went previously to his house. In the mezuzah that outside also had leaves from the sukkah. This is also a custom from Jewish tradition that they kept very much.
Michalis: Did you make seder at home?
Ilias: Yes, yes. And we had special embroideries that we put on the table, not ready-made, hand-embroidered amazing ones. Over the years these were lost. Many embroideries.
Michalis: So at home when you made seder you were three?
Ilias: Not three. There were others too. We were family. Many would gather. And indeed I have from my archive handwritten Haggadahs all with Greek letters in Hebrew.
Michalis: Yes.
Ilias: Like Hanukkah too. I have handwritten ones in Greek.
Michalis: And you would read the Haggadah all together?
Ilias: Yes. I indeed knew so well that we're among the few when we had bar mitzvah who read the entire parasha, not just a piece of the parasha.
Michalis: What year did you have your bar mitzvah?
Ilias: Since I was born in '43, we did it in '56.
Michalis: And do you remember who the Rabbi was then?
Ilias: Ah let me tell you this too. The famous Rabbi Barzilay. Ilias Barzilay. Tremendous knowledge, tremendous personality and tremendous presence.
He had two excellent cantors. One was Sinto Masarano, I think he was from Thessaloniki, by profession a cobbler. But he had no work and had a beautiful melodic voice. Sinto. Sinto Masarano. And the other was Farin.
Sinto Masarano was such a kind-hearted man and here in the old days bagel sellers and various others circulated - I don't know if you caught them - they sold cheese pies by hand inside. They had a little oven around with glass with cheese pies and they sold them. And many times when we came Friday evening and did, I would see him taking the bagels that were left for the bagel seller to go to his house. Indeed because it was Friday he would give them to him from the previous day so he wouldn't give them to him Friday evening.
Barzilay had graduated rabbis, he was a very educated rabbi in Judaism. There were two-three rabbis in the Jewish space with amazing intellect. One of them as soon as the Germans came went to Volos and took his archive. It's the famous archive of Rabbi Pesach. I don't know if you know it. From Rabbi Pesach because my father's family from my father's side was in Volos we have two handwritten wishes on his card with wishes in Hebrew.
Michalis: Do you remember which parasha you read at your bar mitzvah?
Ilias: Can you tell us what time it is now? Because I don't know if we did it on the date of my birthday, we did it about two weeks earlier because we were waiting - it was summer - to finish school and all. I don't remember which parasha it was. I remember though I wrote Hebrew and spoke Hebrew too, unfortunately because I didn't have opportunity to speak and I forgot and lost them.
Here on Sarri just rubbing if you knew there was the famous existentialist place, did you know of Simos the existentialist?
Michalis: No.
Ilias: Simos the existentialist who made the existentialist movement in Greece is today on Sarri Street - Sarri Street if you know it where there's a gas station, above the gas station was there. On this Sarri street there was the famous and perhaps one of the unique workshop and metalworking shop Zandes of Tzafou Daniel. Ending on Sarri below there was the office of Achanati I think it was very good what we said.
Next I wish you personal life to have the best and to have courage in your life.
Later in the interview, Elias Cohen describes the religious and social life of the Jewish community in Athens during the post-war period. He mentions the gradual decline of traditional customs as families moved to the suburbs, but also the deep religiosity of his own family, which even kept a special oven for Passover. He describes his education at the Jewish school in Thissio, which had 80-100 students, the international aid received from Jewish communities abroad, and the scholarship he received to study at Casa d'Italia. He mentions important figures such as Rabbi Elias Bartzilai and the community's cantors, as well as his participation in the historic moment of the raising of the Israeli flag in 1948. The interview also records the difficulties of inheritance claims after the Holocaust and the rich Jewish entrepreneurship in Athens, offering a comprehensive portrait of the community in the post-war reconstruction.
Ilias Koen
Transcription
Continuation of Interview by Michalis Daskalakis Giontis with Ilias Koen
Ilias: My mother was well-known in the Jewish community for her white linens. It was customary then for all the girls to make their trousseau and they would embroider the monograms etc. and other things, and she would make the entire trousseau with the combinations, the robes, etc.
In that house of Yousouroom's that had the Star of David below, my mother had hidden all her jewelry inside a drawer to save them, and they were saved. While other Jews unfortunately who gave theirs to others never got them back.
Michalis: Did your family observe the holidays at home?
Ilias: Let me tell you about the holidays too. Because we were Koen and because it was the early years after the war, most families tried to maintain the customs. Because they would come to the synagogues on Saturdays and Friday evenings since they were in the area around the synagogue - Thiseio, Psyrri, Koumoundourou, Ermou, Athinas, etc.
Where later with the expansion and with the... that every Jew tried and made a better quality of life or made a better future, they went to other areas. The suburbs went further out, they went to Patisia which was then, they went to Philadelphia, they went toward old Phaleron, and so they began to not have the ability to come regularly to the synagogue, and when you don't find yourself with others, your customs gradually get abolished.
I told you we were so fanatical that we had a special oven only for... that no one else in Greece had.
Michalis: So you ate only kosher at home?
Ilias: For Passover we ate matzah and we ate Jewish food. For Yom Kippur we kept the fast. As children we would often go to our father and act like children many times to leave - water for example.
I remember here at the Jewish school because most children were from poor families - in the early '50s there were mostly poor children and families. There were also many rich people who had managed to save their fortunes. But the majority of children were middle or lower class.
They would photograph us here in the synagogue courtyard outside and send the photographs to wealthy families abroad, and somehow each foreign family would help some individual. My brother and I were taken care of by a Jewish family from Switzerland who I remember sent us chocolates and halva and all kinds of sweets for many years.
There was somewhere on Patision Street a Joint warehouse that had clothing and footwear material probably from America, and everyone would go and whatever they liked they would take and wear it. And they would take it to use it.
When I finished school there was a Montiano here who was an officer in the Italian army and with his connections he had achieved a kind of Italian war reparations on a cultural level. To give every year two scholarships for Casa d'Italia, the Italian school that was on Patision across from the museum.
Michalis: What was it called?
Ilias: It's Casa d'Italia.
Michalis: Casa d'Italia.
Ilias: Casa d'Italia is Italy's cultural center.
Michalis: For Jews?
Ilias: Only for Jews. From what I remember now, let me mention a name - Alberto Baruch. I was among the pioneers and indeed finishing high school I had received a scholarship from the Italian government to study in Italy.
Michalis: Did you go?
Ilias: Yes. To study in Italy.
Certain milestones of Greek Judaism that are not mentioned extensively. Who has mentioned or analyzed them. Abraham Benaroya is mentioned somewhat, not very much.
Michalis: Yes.
Ilias: Who has mentioned, one could include, Abraham Benaroya.
Michalis: Yes.
Ilias: Where there's the famous phrase, you don't know if you don't know, of Venizelos to the King who had said "Either me or Benaroya." And who brought socialism.
Who has mentioned that the first credit bank was there in Greece?
Michalis: Oriental Bank.
Ilias: Oriental Bank, somehow... Bank of the Orient. Dorian.
Michalis: Yes.
Ilias: The story of Karagiozis, the famous...
Michalis: Julio Kaimi.
Ilias: Kaimi. I knew him personally.
Michalis: Oh, really?
Ilias: Here when he would come to the community in the last years of his life, in rags and under his arm various documents which he was trying to sell for nothing for the...
To tell you now about Karagiozis that no one knows. As the Karagiozis plays were, Karagiozis the Greek, Karagiozis... Karagiozis was Karagiozis the landlord. Jewish, wait let me tell you. Jewish landlord, Karagiozis, Jewish landlord, and the housewife would go - then they paid rent every week - she would go on Saturday to pay it and he wouldn't take the money and so she wouldn't pay him. It was a very nice story.
Passing through Athens, signs with Hebrew, amazing Jewish signs. There was a famous sign in Klafthmonos Square, in Klafthmonos Square, Pepos Frances.
Michalis: Pepos Frances.
Ilias: Pepos Frances, the fabrics - he was a big fabric merchant. There was on Aiolou until recently a big sign, Nachmia Kapikaeas brothers, there were many Jews there.
Michalis: There's still, Filosof who is there.
Ilias: Yes, Pepos Filosof. They're still there, they have it. And there is the famous dressmaker my compatriot, Florentin Delis, who was the only dressmaker who made, who doesn't exist now, but is the only one who has remained in Greece and Athens, who makes patterns on the body.
Many Jews tried and were helped by Evrer and other factors here to get identity cards with other names. I have my father's identity now, Koenidis. I don't have the Koenidis identity. And my mother's others and special papers.
Because... women are more organized, my mother had all the papers in a bag, for all needs, because air raids often happened and they would go and hide in Monastiraki below. The tunnel was like a shelter then, in 1940.
In one such air raid, in Alamania, my mother with my brother and all the papers, got separated from my father in Alamania. And my father suddenly found himself, Minas Kore, found himself in Athens without any papers. And he was forced to live hidden in forests, in Philadelphia, on Parnitha, to hide. And from the hardships after the war he died.
As children we went to elementary school. I won the scholarship from the Italian government and studied at Casa d'Italia, who indeed when I went gave me the president, and I have the papers, of the school committee, Saltiel Koen, I don't know if he says it, gave me a Jewish book with his signature and wishes and congratulations that I succeeded at the Italian school.
My brother studied here in Physics, a physicist, and went with a fellowship to England, a pioneer in microcomputers. His books, the originals that existed.
Michalis: How many Jewish children do you say were at the school?
Ilias: Around 80 to 100, in the good times around 80 to 100. And they had some special subject of Jewish topics. We had Hebrew with the More - a little, More means teacher - who indeed had the peculiarity, who wasn't a good student however without the, he would put your hand like a nail and hit you with the rod on top.
Michalis: Do you remember his name?
Ilias: Ah More we called him. I remember in all the classrooms there were photographs, lithographs - a photograph is one thing and a lithograph is another, and a colored lithograph is another - with all the heroes of 1821. There were in some classrooms, in the Jewish school, that instead of 1821 had lithographs of Jewish subjects. From Moses who was with the ten commandments, Samson who had such a one.
Below I don't know how they found them for national holidays, they had garlands with Greek flags and garlands with the Jewish flag of Israel.
Another thing I forgot to mention, that I'm among the few now that there will be others, that I myself attended in 1948 on Filellinon Street, when the first raising of the Israeli flag by Naser Moses happened, our mother held us because there were so many people. I remember this event intensely because there were so many people that our mother held us very tightly in her hands so we wouldn't get lost. I attended that event.
Michalis: Filellinon what number did you say?
Ilias: Eight I think is known.
Michalis: Do you remember seeing Naser Moses?
Ilias: What did you say?
Michalis: Did you see Naser Moses?
Ilias: We were very far away. I remember we attended there with many people and we saw if the flag had been raised in front. We saw the flag. I remember it and I remember why I remember it. Our mother held us very tightly so we wouldn't get lost.
Michalis: At school did you celebrate the Jewish holidays?
Ilias: We celebrated, yes. We celebrated the Jewish holidays very much. And indeed they would say the national anthem too. They would say something at the beginning too. A prayer when we entered the classroom very much.
There were the ladies Demagio, Margouli who took care of the food. Demagio, Margouli, Kostis.
There were many families who took the whole family together. They took the whole family to Germany. Both the man, the husband and the wife. Often it had to be determined who died first so the other relatives could inherit. So there was a case of our relative where a whole trial was held to prove that one died first so the other's relatives inherit it.
Such cases came from those who returned besides others who didn't even find their houses. There are such cases too.
I remember another thing. I had the famous one at our house. I've even photographed it. Famous, if you know them, Zenith radios with seven short waves. Something amazing. They're like suitcases. Something tremendous. And we would listen every Friday evening from Israel, Kol Israel from Jerusalem. In Ladino, the Kiddush and in Hebrew.
Michalis: Did your mother light candles on Sabbath?
Ilias: We lit them. We lit them. And indeed we would cook from Friday. I tell you, we did, but later gradually because the world expanded, everyone began with an excuse that we're far away or many didn't give the proper knowledge to their children due to economic difficulties that they had to work and many things were lost.
After Passover we would collect, we would go to the fields, specifically to Philadelphia which had wheat then and we would collect wheat stalks and put them in the synagogue's mezuzah. We did the same with Shavuot and with Sukkot. We would take leaves from Sukkot and put them in the mezuzah.
I saw that this custom was kept by Mizan who went previously to his house. In the mezuzah that outside also had leaves from the sukkah. This is also a custom from Jewish tradition that they kept very much.
Michalis: Did you make seder at home?
Ilias: Yes, yes. And we had special embroideries that we put on the table, not ready-made, hand-embroidered amazing ones. Over the years these were lost. Many embroideries.
Michalis: So at home when you made seder you were three?
Ilias: Not three. There were others too. We were family. Many would gather. And indeed I have from my archive handwritten Haggadahs all with Greek letters in Hebrew.
Michalis: Yes.
Ilias: Like Hanukkah too. I have handwritten ones in Greek.
Michalis: And you would read the Haggadah all together?
Ilias: Yes. I indeed knew so well that we're among the few when we had bar mitzvah who read the entire parasha, not just a piece of the parasha.
Michalis: What year did you have your bar mitzvah?
Ilias: Since I was born in '43, we did it in '56.
Michalis: And do you remember who the Rabbi was then?
Ilias: Ah let me tell you this too. The famous Rabbi Barzilay. Ilias Barzilay. Tremendous knowledge, tremendous personality and tremendous presence.
He had two excellent cantors. One was Sinto Masarano, I think he was from Thessaloniki, by profession a cobbler. But he had no work and had a beautiful melodic voice. Sinto. Sinto Masarano. And the other was Farin.
Sinto Masarano was such a kind-hearted man and here in the old days bagel sellers and various others circulated - I don't know if you caught them - they sold cheese pies by hand inside. They had a little oven around with glass with cheese pies and they sold them. And many times when we came Friday evening and did, I would see him taking the bagels that were left for the bagel seller to go to his house. Indeed because it was Friday he would give them to him from the previous day so he wouldn't give them to him Friday evening.
Barzilay had graduated rabbis, he was a very educated rabbi in Judaism. There were two-three rabbis in the Jewish space with amazing intellect. One of them as soon as the Germans came went to Volos and took his archive. It's the famous archive of Rabbi Pesach. I don't know if you know it. From Rabbi Pesach because my father's family from my father's side was in Volos we have two handwritten wishes on his card with wishes in Hebrew.
Michalis: Do you remember which parasha you read at your bar mitzvah?
Ilias: Can you tell us what time it is now? Because I don't know if we did it on the date of my birthday, we did it about two weeks earlier because we were waiting - it was summer - to finish school and all. I don't remember which parasha it was. I remember though I wrote Hebrew and spoke Hebrew too, unfortunately because I didn't have opportunity to speak and I forgot and lost them.
Here on Sarri just rubbing if you knew there was the famous existentialist place, did you know of Simos the existentialist?
Michalis: No.
Ilias: Simos the existentialist who made the existentialist movement in Greece is today on Sarri Street - Sarri Street if you know it where there's a gas station, above the gas station was there. On this Sarri street there was the famous and perhaps one of the unique workshop and metalworking shop Zandes of Tzafou Daniel. Ending on Sarri below there was the office of Achanati I think it was very good what we said.
Next I wish you personal life to have the best and to have courage in your life.